Games and Japanese

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Mii
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby Mii » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:51 am

Thanks for the tip, momimomi-senpai! I didn't know there were software that would help you with with this kind of thing. Where do you usually read/get visual novels?

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momimomi
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby momimomi » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:10 am

@Mii
This is an open part of the forum and it can be indexed by Google. So, I PMed you. ^u^

Sacchan wrote:Hey, I resent that! There's Visual Novels without any porn content in it.

Wraith garbled what I said to him. When I gave him the link above, I just added a passing comment (because we had talked about "virtual" vs "visual") saying that "visual novel" is a term used mostly in the western community while the Japanese community uses "eroge" and "adventure game." I never meant to say that VNs are all about porn.

[rant]It's true, I do prefer 18+ titles, but I don't read them just for porn (in fact, I skip most of h-scenes). Although this is not the only reason, what matters for this discussion is that I read 18+ titles because I find them more honest and non-hypocritical, unlike other otaku-aimed media. What I mean is that modern anime, manga, light novels, and even games (Nier Automata) try to sell sex without actual sex. All ecchi stuff is basically that. Creators make sex-substitute that they can sell in non-18+ shops. I can't stand that. I loathe it. And the same happens in all-ages VN titles. Just look at this official daki-makura for a big all-ages title from 2016, which will also get an anime: http://axia-info.com/tuuhan/images_island/mc_rinne.jpg By the way, should I mention that sex is the most natural episode for almost any romance story? Sure, there exist explicit anime, manga, novels, but those are mostly completely porn-focused, they lack interesting stories.

All in all, 18+ VNs focused on stories is the only medium that has both intricate plots and sex without teasing/ecchi/fan-service bullshit so popular in other otaku-aimed media.

P.S. I know, although few in numbers, there do exist anime, manga, light novels that don't have ecchi/harem bullshit. Those titles are cool by me. I just don't like serialized nature of the media. I'm tired of cliffhangers and waiting for the next episode.[/rant]
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Wraith
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby Wraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:35 pm

That moment when the jokes suddenly turn serious o:)

I agree with you, senpai, I was just joking. Yes, I believe the best approach to sex is to be honest about it, and it tends to be part of most human relationships, so if you want to write about relationships, it's better to give the real thing than to beat around the bush, which ends up in weird stuff like the strange ecchi niche in Japan where you have things like Satanophany, with naked women without genitals, as if they were dolls. Once you remove the taboo, sex is just another one of human activities, with its own rituals and feelings, of course.

And obviously I agree that once you are honest about sex, you probably become able to approach your art more freely. Thus I totally believe that adult VNs are as you describe them - mature, complex, sophisticated. I don't bother to consume them, as I've told you in IRC, because my choice of medium for serious stuff are books, paper and ink stuff. Eliot, Mann, Lewis, Dostoevsky and so on.

I come to manga strictly for entertainment, which is not to say I like braindead fanservice stuff. It's just that my tolerance bar for those "sex substitutes" is higher than yours. I accept as a fact of life that mangaka will be under pressure to cater to their mainstream audience somehow, so I don't mind ecchi and fanservice, so long as the story is good (and my bar is quite high for that). I doubt I'll ever read a manga because of fanservice/teasing/ecchi, but I am perfectly fine with enjoying a good story that also happens to have these things.

This preference for entertaining material has resulted in my having a pretty pedestrian taste for manga. I avoid excessive sophistication and end up with series that can hardly be described as masterpieces of the genre. But they are all properly told and offer some food for thought.

(Of course, Satanophany sucks, but at least we have a good laugh deriding it in the notes XD )
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momimomi
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby momimomi » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:36 pm

I long since gave up on converting you to a VN reader. :P That wasn't the purpose of my message. I was just pointing out that VNs aren't all about porn, they are just more honest than mainstream anime/manga. And I didn't even try to say that VNs are super-deep stuff. Both mainstream Japanese media and 18+ VNs are catered for roughly the same audience.
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Mii
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby Mii » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:54 pm

Those were some interesting arguments. I agree that about the fan service and the ecchi stuff. Some years ago I would read some stuff just because of fan service, but now I can't endure a story that serves only as a way to justify more fan service, ecchi, etc. But of course one should always read whatever pleases.
From experience, which would be "easier" as a start, VNs or manga?
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Wraith
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby Wraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:02 pm

I don't read VNs, so I can only speak about manga, but I would think the one that has fewer words and is illustrated would be the easier one XD

Then again, with VNs it's much easier to look words up because you can just copy and paste. With manga, especially if it doesn't have furigana, you have to use a radical combiner to find unknown kanji one by one.
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momimomi
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby momimomi » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:48 pm

I didn't care about VNs when I started learning Japanese, so manga was my choice. But speaking theoretically, I mostly agree with Wraith. Manga has less text, but in VNs you can easily copy&paste stuff you don't know. I think you should look for a title (be it manga or VN) that you're interested because in the beginning everything will be hard. You need motivation to overcome first obstacles.

One thing I don't agree with Wraith is about radical combiners. I've never used them. It's an extremely slow method. It's old like dinosaurs. People have inverted computers! Tell your computer to look kanji for you. If you care to bother, you can install OCR programs (I never bothered). Otherwise, use hand-writing recognition that comes with any IME software.
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Wraith
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby Wraith » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:11 pm

Radical combiners are computerised, too, senpai ^_^

And every IME software, be it in the OS or in sites like jisho.org, includes both tools, so Mii can choose the one that feels more comfortable. Personally, I'm a poor drawer (be it with my trackball mouse or my touchpad; I've never tried with my drawing tablet, though), and because I already knew a significant number of kanji before I began translating, I can find even a totally abstruse symbol in a matter of seconds using a radical combiner. I've never bothered to use OCR tools, though; the one I tried wasn't good with raws that had poor contrast, so there's that.

One advantage of radical combiners is that they aren't influenced by stroke order, which may be an issue depending on the drawing software. They also give you an idea of how kanji arise. But I draw, too, when I'm not sure what the radicals are. It seldom happens, though. Given that Mii is a redrawer, maybe he'll fare better with drawing than combining radicals.

About manga and VN, another factor to take into consideration is that VNs (I assume) have more elaborate Japanese, longer sentences and all.

When my colleagues in the Japanese lessons (which I take mostly for oral practice) ask me which manga they should try first, I tell them to choose a serious shounen, because it will have furigana and not too much use of slang. Avoid high school life and comedy. But mostly, senpai is right: motivation is all in the beginning, so try something you want to read.
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momimomi
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby momimomi » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:26 pm

Well... For me, it's hard to imagine finding a kanji with a radical combiner in a matter of seconds. Maybe the fact that I used to practice drawing kanjis affected my choice for hand-writing software. I can guess stroke order for most common kanji. Also, when I used hand-writing often, I used it with my drawing tablet. Nowadays, I look for kanji so rarely, that I just don't bother with the tablet and use my mouse. The mouse is a bit less convenient, though.

VNs (I assume) have more elaborate Japanese, longer sentences and all.

An average VN has MUCH more text: 1 to 2 MB-long scripts are standard, which equals to 500k-1kk Japanese characters. For comparison, an average manga volume has about 10k characters.

But when it comes to elaborateness, that varies wildly: from "manga level" to the level that even natives have hard time wrapping their head around it. Here is a pic: https://anonimag.es/i/intermediate-hell ... d74dd5.jpg Even lower than "plotge" would be stories written by Mareni with his long-winded similes/metaphors https://anonimag.es/i/Bengara142322.png XD
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Mii
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Re: Games and Japanese

Postby Mii » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:30 pm

For my studies I use both drawing and radicals. I think drawing kanjis in the right stroke order is faster, but sometimes I really can't get the software to understand the kanji....so I go to radicals.

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